07Robert K. Greenleaf known as “servant-leadership” has been drawing a lot of attention. A group of pilgrims accompanied by a servant falls apart as soon as the servant leaves the group. The servant, the one who supported everyone in the group from behind, without giving orders, was indeed the true leader of the group. You published a book titled ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■, what are your thoughts on leadership?Yamagiwa: Considering that a university is a sort of jungle, I applied what I learned from my experi-ence with gorilla societies to leading a university. A leader is fundamentally different from a boss. A boss represses others with force and is therefore easily defeated when a stronger individual arrives from outside the group. A leader is someone who is supported from below. The leader need not suppress other members with force, which he would be better off directing toward the outside. A leader puts together a gorilla society. So I decided to emulate gorillas and tried to be a good tamer of fierce animals, because there were many fierce animals at Kyoto University (laughs). I believe that a leader is one who lets others freely use their abilities, instead of suppressing them, so that they can make a positive contribution to society, to Japan, and the world.Ochi: I think that the types of leadership that uni-versities need must vary, depending on what each university is like, whether it is, for example, a large university with many powerful individuals like Kyoto University or a smaller one in the provinces. I think that diversity is also needed in the images we have of leadership.Yamagiwa: Kyoto University has an enormous Dr. Yamagiwa was born in Tokyo in 1952. He graduat-ed from the Faculty of Science, Kyoto University, and left the Graduate School of Science of the same university upon completing the doctoral course work, obtaining his doctorate later. After working in several posts, including as a research fellow at the Japan Monkey Center, a professor and the dean of the Grad-uate School of Science, and the dean of the Faculty of Science, all at the same university, Dr. Yamagiwa served as the President of Kyoto University until 2020. His main area of specialization is evolutionary anthro-pology. He conducted socio-ecological research on wild gorillas in various parts of Africa. He served as president of the International Primatological Society and president of the Science Council of Japan and has been a member of the Central Environment Council of the Ministry of the Environment of Japan since 2005. He has been in his present post since 2021. His numerous publications include books (published in Japanese) such as ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ (University of Tokyo Press) and ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ (Asahi Shinsho).number of divisions and research institutions. One-quarter of the faculty members belong to their respective research centers, and they rarely see others outside their own organization. Itʼs quite hard to get those independent-minded re-searchers who are used to only minding their own business to look outward, to get a more global perspective conscious of the center. An organiza-tion can lose its dynamism if all members are only doing their separate things in their dispersed corners. So I decided that we should strive for more cohesion where it was necessary. I explained this patiently and held discussions at the deansʼ meetings and the education and research council meetings. I think we managed to make some satisfactory achievements.Ochi: By the way, what interested you the most when you were a child?Yamagiwa: The idea of becoming an explorer. ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ were my favorite books. I wanted to sail off to explore a soli-tary island and go to Africa and discover unknown animals in the jungles.Ochi: So you did realize your dream in a way…Yamagiwa: Dr. Dolittle, in ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ series, learns animalsʼ languages from a parrot that can speak with all kinds of animals in their own languages, goes to Africa, and talks with monkeys and many other animals. I knew it was fantasy, but I dreamed of doing something similar anyway. So, yes, I can say that I made my dream come true in a way.Ochi: I believe we will be able to find out what dogs, birds, and other animals think about when further progress is made with digital transforma-tion (DX) and it becomes possible to verbalize thoughts that are only formed in the brain. I sort of understand the feelings of my two dogs, although it is mostly me guessing since the dogs donʼt articulate their feelings with words.Yamagiwa: I donʼt think that we really communi-cate our feelings with words or that language has developed as a means to communicate feelings. For me, language has always been a vehicle of information, something that makes us think. There was one time that I put my dream of becoming an explorer on hold, and it was during the student pro-tests in the 60s, which involved even high school kids. I was living in Tokyo in those days. There were protests in Shinjuku, with students gathering for demonstrations. I used to attend meetings at nearby universities and didnʼt care at all about becoming an explorer. I was beginning to ask myself hard questions: What are human beings? What is society? I was fed up with living in Tokyo and went to Kyoto, where I discovered primatolo-gy. To understand what humans are, you have to step outside of the world of humans once. To understand human society, you have to begin with the time when society was not yet fully formed as such. This is how you think in primatology. I found the idea of stepping outside of the human world very intriguing. This is how my dream of being an explorer got connected with my research.Born in 1952 in Imabari City, Ehime Prefecture, Dr. Ochi graduated from the Faculty of Medicine, Hiroshima University, and joined the Department of Orthopedic Surgery at Hiroshima University Hospital. In 1995, he was made a professor at Shimane Medical University (the present Faculty of Medicine at Shimane Universi-ty). In 2002, he was appointed p rofessor (in orthope-dic surgery) of the Graduate School of Medicine, Dentistry and Pharmacology at Hiroshima University. Having served as the d irector of Hiroshima Universi-ty Hospital, Dr. Ochi has been the President of Hiroshi-ma University since 2015. In the same year, he received the Order of Culture, Medal with Purple Ribbon. In 2021, he was appointed member of the Central Coun-cil for Education of the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science of Technology of Japan. His area of specialization is knee joint surgery.Ochi: Why did you choose the Faculty of Science at Kyoto University?Yamagiwa: Initially, I was drawn to Physics, where Dr. Hideki Yukawa was. In high school, I was good at physics and loved math, too. So in this sense, I made a complete change of course.Ochi: I went to an integrated six-year secondary school in Matsuyama and lived in a dormitory. There were about 50 of us in total, and we all lived in the dormitory. Many of those who graduated from this school before and after me turned out to be eminent figures in various fields, such as members of the Diet, university presidents, and directors of major corporations. I became good friends with highly original personalities, like this one I recall whose passion was judo and who also loved the classics. What do you think influenced you the most in your youth?Yamagiwa: I guess it was the student protests, after all. I was in the first class of students subjected to the new cluster-based entrance examination system introduced into Tokyoʼs mu-nicipal high schools. In this system, you couldnʼt tell in advance which high school you would be admitted to among those that made up the cluster you chose. Some clusters were a mixture of prestigious and not-so-prestigious schools. So there was a tendency among the applicants to choose a cluster of relatively evenly high-level schools, if not the highest level. As a result, even in the school I entered, there were quite a few high achievers from central Tokyo, those pedantic and cheeky types. At school, we had heated debates Longing to be an explorer as a boyStudent protests asa turning pointYAMAGIWA Juichi, Ph.D.OCHI, Mitsuo, M.D., Ph.D.
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